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SpeakFreeForum > Political > Political Commentary > Protect free speech, even if offensive; you decide |
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SpeakFreeForum > Political > Political Commentary > Protect free speech, even if offensive; you decide |
| Moderated by: GravyBoat, AgentOregon | Page: 1 2   |
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| Protect free speech, even if offensive; you decide | Rate Topic |
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| Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 10:20 pm |
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1st Post |
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Neo Head Loon - Original M.A.I.M. 
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http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/salim_mansur/2010/03/04/13114116.html Protect free speech, even if offensive By SALIM MANSUR, QMI Agency How does a liberal society deal with a case such as that of Salman Hossain, who posted vile, incendiary messages in public against Jews and others he detests and wishes harm? It keeps this individual under surveillance and indicts him under the country’s Criminal Code — in Canada it would be section 319 — if he is found to contravene it. But a liberal society that takes freedom of speech for its anchor will not censor, or indict, this individual on the ground his speech is offensive to some or all people. In several of my recent columns published in this paper, I have contended that Geert Wilders, the Dutch MP on trial for hate speech in Amsterdam’s Court of Appeal, has the right to express freely — irrespective of whether I, or Muslims in general, find his views offensive — what he thinks about Muslims, Islam and the Qur’an. The trial of Wilders in Holland indicates how persistent the temptation is within a liberal society to resort to illiberal means in dealing with situations that might cause some public unease. Complaints against Ezra Levant, Mark Steyn and Maclean’s magazine before various human rights commissions in Canada are other examples. Resist temptation This temptation should be resisted at all times and freedom of speech should be defended unconditionally, especially when some abuse this freedom by deliberately riling others through malicious speech. The argument that free speech must also be responsible speech is just another approach for censoring free speech or indicting an unpleasant individual. Any limit placed on free speech other than what the Criminal Code provides for tarnishes the fundamental characteristic of that liberal society. It is only in a liberal society that an individual as a minority of one can mock, ridicule and vilify the majority, and his right to do so is protected on the transparently simple — yet revolutionary — calculus that if the majority is not constrained from abridging the right of any one person to speak freely it might do the same of many. The struggle to protect free speech has not been easy. But over time, as in the United States where free speech as the first amendment right has been greatly secured, a liberal society should learn to distinguish between content of speech a majority might detest and crime that needs to be tried and punished. Moreover, the temptation of those who seek to limit free speech when it is offensive reflects their doubts in the capacity of a liberal society to maintain its civic decency and, hence, undervalues its essential strength derived from the will of a free people. Salman Hossain’s anti-Semitic rantings are repugnant. But this 20-something Bangladeshi-Canadian student at one of Toronto’s universities is merely an irritating pimple on the body politics of a liberal society. In protecting this detestable young man’s right to speak freely, even offensively, Canada as a liberal society would merely be abiding by its own commitments to individual rights and freedoms, and remaining confident in its police forces to prudently deal with any breach of peace. Comment: I agree with about 85% of this as at it's core it is true but there has to be some limits on speech, it's not a license to be reckless. The author attempts to bypass that point by referring to criminal codes and the authorities but since when has that been the primer for responsible behavior?
____________________ (Avatar created by OMNT.) “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churhill |
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| Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 10:50 pm |
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2nd Post |
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Mike Mitrosky Administrator 
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The whole purpose of protecting free speech is protecting unpopular speech.. Popular speech never has to be protected, because everybody likes it.
____________________ "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine |
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| Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 11:24 pm |
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3rd Post |
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YOGI Member 
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NEO...What examples come to mind?
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| Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 02:06 am |
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4th Post |
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Neo Head Loon - Original M.A.I.M.
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Mike Mitrosky wrote: The whole purpose of protecting free speech is protecting unpopular speech.. Popular speech never has to be protected, because everybody likes it. Agreed, but there is nothing in this world that is absolute and I don't see how anyone can claim Carte Blanche in all cases under the 1st Amendment. I'd agree it's a thin and difficult line to measure but there are limits already enumerated in law. Abdicating for or against political policy is your right, advocating for the assassination of a political figure you disagree with is not. Well that is my view.
____________________ (Avatar created by OMNT.) “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churhill |
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| Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 02:24 am |
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5th Post |
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Mike Mitrosky Administrator
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Neo wrote: Mike Mitrosky wrote:The whole purpose of protecting free speech is protecting unpopular speech.. Popular speech never has to be protected, because everybody likes it. Yeah the limits are when you infringe on the rights of others.
____________________ "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine |
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| Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 05:48 am |
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6th Post |
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GravyBoat Moderator 
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ernst zundel is finally free, i wrote a thread about him
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| Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 01:38 pm |
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7th Post |
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AgentOregon Lead Administrator 
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On another site that I visit from time to time, in a thread about Obongo's upcoming trip to Indonesia, an individual asked: "I wonder if they have a Dealey Plaza there?" I responded "We can only hope." The thread was deleted by mgmt and I was warned because "anybody with 2 brain cells understands what was implied. Yes...but is implying you might like to see something happen the same as advocating or promoting it? Paranoia runs deep...into your heart it will creep...starts when you're always afraid...step outta line, the Man comes and takes you away.
____________________ Youth is fleeting but immaturity can last a lifetime. AO Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. H.L.Mencken |
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| Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 05:44 pm |
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8th Post |
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Mike Mitrosky Administrator
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AgentOregon wrote: On another site that I visit from time to time, in a thread about Obongo's upcoming trip to Indonesia, an individual asked: Even advocating or promoting it is free speech according to SCOTUS.
____________________ "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine |
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| Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 07:16 pm |
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9th Post |
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YOGI Member
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MIKE...I don't like that kind of trash-talk. CRS strikes but it seems like it was during my President Slick Willie's '96 campaign...a client of mine told me one of drinking buddies in a Chattanooga beer bar got soused and was telling everyone if Slick Willie made a campaign stop in Chattanooga, he'll be a "dead mudderphoucher". Told me his Bud spent two days in Atlanta with the SS & FBI...uh, for "debriefing"... Last edited on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 07:21 pm by YOGI |
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| Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 08:57 pm |
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10th Post |
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Mike Mitrosky Administrator
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YOGI wrote: MIKE...I don't like that kind of trash-talk. CRS strikes but it seems like it was during my President Slick Willie's '96 campaign...a client of mine told me one of drinking buddies in a Chattanooga beer bar got soused and was telling everyone if Slick Willie made a campaign stop in Chattanooga, he'll be a "dead mudderphoucher". Told me his Bud spent two days in Atlanta with the SS & FBI...uh, for "debriefing"... I don't like that kind of talk either. Anytime anybody threatens to take away somebody else's rights (like the right to life) I don't like it one bit. But a drunk in a bar spouting nonsense is probably just being a stupid drunk.. I think whats bad is when certain people especially use language to incite lesser-able people.. maybe people who are not so bright.. or under bad circumstances that get influenced by such talk and then get motivated into actually carrying out harm against someone.. I especially dont like it when the government pays people to do this.. People like the old Radio guy Hal Turner.. Real racist nazi-like motherfucker that used to broadcast here in NJ. Turned out after years of nonsense that the guy was an FBI informant. Its almost like anytime anybody is advocating real violent anti-govt behavior that it is the government itself that is inciting such behavior.. Makes one kinda wonder ya know?
____________________ "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine |
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| Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 09:00 pm |
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11th Post |
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AgentOregon Lead Administrator
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YOGI wrote: ...a client of mine told me one of drinking buddies in a Chattanooga beer bar got soused and was telling everyone if Slick Willie made a campaign stop in Chattanooga, he'll be a "dead mudderphoucher". Told me his Bud spent two days in Atlanta with the SS & FBI...uh, for "debriefing"... Well...that's a lot closer to a threat than what the other guy and I posted about Dealey Plaza...but even what the drunk Chattanoogan said isn't an actual threat, whether the SS or FBI thought so or not. He could have meant there are enough nutcases in TN that Slick Willie might get shot...not that he, personally, was planning to do it. He could have even said "I hope somebody shoots Slick Willie!" and been within his free speech rights. Its one thing to say "I'm gonna kill that SOB" and quite another to say "I hope somebody kills that SOB"...or implying it...don't you think?
____________________ Youth is fleeting but immaturity can last a lifetime. AO Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. H.L.Mencken |
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| Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 12:32 am |
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12th Post |
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Neo Head Loon - Original M.A.I.M.
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AgentOregon wrote: YOGI wrote:...a client of mine told me one of drinking buddies in a Chattanooga beer bar got soused and was telling everyone if Slick Willie made a campaign stop in Chattanooga, he'll be a "dead mudderphoucher". Told me his Bud spent two days in Atlanta with the SS & FBI...uh, for "debriefing"... Well, I'd say it's just stupid to shoot ones mouth off in a public place, that would include this place (or type of place on the Internet) because it leaves you open for harm. The F.B.I. and the Secret Service don't play nice and it takes big bucks to have a shot at standing up to these wonderful servants of the American People. Maybe it's more about how you say something rather than what you're saying? In the end, they are the arbiters of what is viewed as implicit or implying. Besides, as much as I loathe the Dimwitrats and Obonzo, I don't see where shooting them/killing them solves the inherent problem of their party and agenda. Some other lizard will just take their place and you're back to square one. That said, it comes down to this: If you desire to express yourself and knowingly do so in a manner that may be construed as over the top, beyond the mainstream, dangerous, sedionary in nature, whatever.....then you can do so but with the knowledge that some folks might find a reason to pay you a visit "officially". I'm a huge proponent for free speech but I won't allow someone to abdicate the assassination of ANY president because that's murder and I won't ever be a party to such a thing. To me that is not free speech, it's abuse of free speech.
____________________ (Avatar created by OMNT.) “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churhill |
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| Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 12:59 am |
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13th Post |
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YOGI Member
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Mike Mitrosky wrote: YOGI wrote:MIKE...I don't like that kind of trash-talk. CRS strikes but it seems like it was during my President Slick Willie's '96 campaign...a client of mine told me one of drinking buddies in a Chattanooga beer bar got soused and was telling everyone if Slick Willie made a campaign stop in Chattanooga, he'll be a "dead mudderphoucher". Told me his Bud spent two days in Atlanta with the SS & FBI...uh, for "debriefing"... Of course, Mike! Like when a bud & I showed up0 for a couple of meetings in late '72 in Tampa in response to ads on the USF campus about joining the "struggle" via attending the RED STAR CADRE meetings. We later learned the head of it worked for the FBI...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 03:36 am |
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14th Post |
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Neo Head Loon - Original M.A.I.M.
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YOGI wrote: Mike Mitrosky wrote:YOGI wrote:MIKE...I don't like that kind of trash-talk. CRS strikes but it seems like it was during my President Slick Willie's '96 campaign...a client of mine told me one of drinking buddies in a Chattanooga beer bar got soused and was telling everyone if Slick Willie made a campaign stop in Chattanooga, he'll be a "dead mudderphoucher". Told me his Bud spent two days in Atlanta with the SS & FBI...uh, for "debriefing"... Sounds like lyrics from "Long Cool Woman In A Black Dress"...gnomesian? (NTAO)
____________________ (Avatar created by OMNT.) “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churhill |
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| Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 03:49 pm |
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15th Post |
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AgentOregon Lead Administrator
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Neo wrote: Besides, as much as I loathe the Dimwitrats and Obonzo, I don't see where shooting them/killing them solves the inherent problem of their party and agenda. Some other lizard will just take their place and you're back to square one. Well...if Obongo was to be bumped off (note: I am not advocating or promoting such a thing), we'd then have President Biden who, at least, is an actual US Citizen. When somebody asks "Is there a Dealey Plaza there?" before Obama's upcoming trip to Indonesia and somebody else responds "We can only hope so", that is a form of humor...dark humor, perhaps, but humor nonetheless. Anybody who can't recognize it as humor and a form of protected speech...not abusive speech...needs to step back and re-evaluate their thinking...IMO.
____________________ Youth is fleeting but immaturity can last a lifetime. AO Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. H.L.Mencken |
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12th, 2010 01:23 am |
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16th Post |
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Neo Head Loon - Original M.A.I.M.
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AgentOregon wrote: Neo wrote:Besides, as much as I loathe the Dimwitrats and Obonzo, I don't see where shooting them/killing them solves the inherent problem of their party and agenda. Some other lizard will just take their place and you're back to square one. Well...if Obongo was to be bumped off (note: I am not advocating or promoting such a thing), we'd then have President Biden who, at least, is an actual US Citizen. I can agree with that in that it doesn't abdicate a threat, direct or otherwise and is obviously meant as humor, dark or whatever. Now change that to "There will be a Dealey Plaza" there for Obama and then "We can only hope so". There's a difference there which is obvious although no intent is there other than Internet beer balls being displayed. Tis all I'm saying amigo. At this point in time and under Obama and Holder, what we've seen is "A.C.O.R.N. & Black Panther" voter intimidation and fraud GOOD, equal justice before the law BAD. Asking for I.D. to prove you are who you are to vote BAD, S.E.I.U. brutes beating opposition voters senseless GOOD. This is like watching a combination of Stalin and Hitler in slow motion (due to our rapidly shrinking Civil Rights) and before we know it, Marshall Law will be declared and there won't BE any elections. The leftist projected that on Bush in 07 and I said it'd never happen and it didn't. I'm saying that if it were to happen, the guy that will do it is currently residing at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. It's quite easy to predict, one need only look at how many rules and regulations this man has already broken (not counting his campaign promises of transparency) and what's going on with the health-care fiasco in the Congress. He and his Administration are on record as stating that they will get their way even if they have to shove it down our throats. It really doesn't matter that the majority of Americans don't want this and have stated so in polling for months, nor does it matter that his "plan" will bankrupt this nation, nor does it matter to him that he's spent 15 months on something that is a joke and a fiasco in the making while millions of Americans continue to lose their homes and jobs. It just doesn't faze the man at all despite his claims of "having a lazor-like focus" on j0b creation starting in 2010. Well, we're three months into it and we're still trying to use underhanded parliamentary tricks to shove his commie health care plan into the fabric of America. Only the very leftist of the left are ok with this, these are your Keith Olbermanns, "Tingly" Chrissy Matthews, Rachel Maddow (who I watched for the 1st time last night and boy does she suck) and the other moron from West Wing, writer and sycophant Lawrence O'Donnell. Then there are the Moore's and the rest of the Hollywood pinheads like Penn and Susan Saranwrap and her ex-husband TImothy Hasbeen, etc...who would be the FIRST to be shot and their fortunes confiscated by the very people that these morons worship (Castro, Chavez, Amanutjob in Iran, Dear Leader in North Korea, or pick a Chino or Ruskie leader). Say, while we're speaking of Obama and his agenda, I'd like to ask "where the hell is Code Pink and Cindy Sheehan, MoveOn.org, A.C.O.R.N., and the rest of the anti-war protagonists these days? Last time I checked, we're STILL in Iraq and Obama sent 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan. We're still losing guys but I don't hear nary a peep from them nor the Statist MSM these days. No more body counts, no more DEMANDS to photograph returning caskets of our G.I.'s, no more protests in the streets, no more demands for the arrest of the POTUS for "war crimes". Fascinating stuff, no?
____________________ (Avatar created by OMNT.) “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churhill |
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12th, 2010 01:47 am |
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17th Post |
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AgentOregon Lead Administrator
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Yes. "Those are 'our' jets now!" ...famous libtard comment on Slick Willy's inauguration day when the Air Force planes flew over.
____________________ Youth is fleeting but immaturity can last a lifetime. AO Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. H.L.Mencken |
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12th, 2010 02:10 am |
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18th Post |
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YOGI Member
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AgentOregon wrote: Yes. JEEZ, AO...Ya remember that from '92??? I's impressed! Obviously, da RED little shits have the same attitude now...
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| Posted: Fri Mar 12th, 2010 02:39 am |
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19th Post |
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YOGI Member
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Neo wrote: AgentOregon wrote:Neo wrote:Besides, as much as I loathe the Dimwitrats and Obonzo, I don't see where shooting them/killing them solves the inherent problem of their party and agenda. Some other lizard will just take their place and you're back to square one. Well...if Obongo was to be bumped off (note: I am not advocating or promoting such a thing), we'd then have President Biden who, at least, is an actual US Citizen. NEO...I've never been a stickler about one's spelling, but twice you have used ABDICATE when I believe you mean ADVOCATE. They are kinda opposites in meaning... Far as body counts...what's wrong with that? In the 11th grade, '64-'65, our physics teacher, an AF veteran discharged a year before, blocked off a 12" x12" square on the upper left of the blackboard to keep a running daily tally of NAM KIA's, WOUNDED and POW/MIA's...I considered it an excellent reminder of just what some of my older brethern were experiencing... For the life of me...WTF could anyone consider WRONG about TV coverage of our dead in flag draped coffins returning home from WAR???
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13th, 2010 11:17 pm |
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20th Post |
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Neo Head Loon - Original M.A.I.M.
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YOGI wrote: Neo wrote:AgentOregon wrote:Neo wrote:Besides, as much as I loathe the Dimwitrats and Obonzo, I don't see where shooting them/killing them solves the inherent problem of their party and agenda. Some other lizard will just take their place and you're back to square one. Well...if Obongo was to be bumped off (note: I am not advocating or promoting such a thing), we'd then have President Biden who, at least, is an actual US Citizen. Whatever dude....abdicate,advocate...tomatoe tomato. You're missing the gist of my statement which is we're still at war, guys are still dying, GITMO is still open, caskets are still returning home. Where are those on the far left that crucified GWB over this and demanded that America view the caskets coming off the planes? Where are these same people now as nothing has changed except the person in the WH who is a Democrat? Perhaps therein lies the answer no? Well, all I know is that I don't remember reading new stories nor viewing film footage of Cindy Sheehan camping out with fellow anti-war leftist wackos activists in front of the Obama Compound in Martha's Vineyard when HE went on vacation. Nor did they follow him to Hawaii. Funny...same war...same issues.....the only difference is the (D) after the name as opposed to an (R).
____________________ (Avatar created by OMNT.) “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” Winston Churhill |
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